For today's episode of Pain to Passion Live, I had an incredibly insightful conversation with Marcie Alvis Walker…

…an amazing writer who shares her personal experiences as a Black woman in this world. Marcie's journey as a storyteller is truly inspiring, and you can feel her passion for storytelling in every word she shares.

We dived deep into her book, Everybody Come Alive, where she poignantly describes growing up between two different worlds, with her grandparents on one side (who presented a more assimilated image to the world) and her mother on the other (who embraced her Black identity with pride). This contrasting environment exposed her to the complexity of racial dynamics from an early age.

We discussed how race is often more about people's feelings and perceptions than actual facts. It's something Marcie experienced as a child when she watched "Roots" with the rest of the world. The show brought the subject of race to the forefront, but back then, there was little language or understanding to discuss it openly. This lack of language and education about racism only perpetuates harmful stereotypes and misconceptions.

Marcie also touched on the impact of systemic racism and how it affects children, especially in their early developmental years. It's essential for parents to acknowledge the larger public conversation about race and engage with their kids to create a more inclusive and empathetic world.

We talked about the power of storytelling in shaping perspectives and changing lives. Stories have the ability to transform our views of the world and build bridges of understanding between people from different backgrounds.

Throughout the podcast, Marcie's insights are truly eye-opening, and her personal experiences shed light on the importance of having open conversations about race and its impact on all of us. I'm grateful to Marcie for sharing her story and inspiring us all to create a more compassionate and inclusive world.

This is a conversation you won't want to miss!

As always, please rate and review this podcast, and share with a friend! Let's get these empowering and encouraging episodes out to as many people as we can. Thank you, friends!

More about Marcie:

Marcie Alvis-Walker is a writer and the creator of the blog and Instagram feed, Black Coffee with White Friends and the author of EVERYBODY COME ALIVE: A MEMOIR IN ESSAYS. She is passionate about what it means to embrace intersectionality, diversity and inclusion in our spiritual lives. She recently moved to Chicago, Illinois with her husband, daughter, and their dog Evie where she reads a lot of books, watches a lot of movies, and drinks a lot of tea and coffee.

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Website - ⁠⁠marciealviswalker.com⁠⁠

Newsletter - ⁠⁠blackeyedstories.substack.com⁠⁠

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(TRANSCRIPT) S2E15: The Power of Storytelling - Exploring Race and Identity with Marcie Alvis Walker

Note: Transcript is created by AI. Please excuse any errors.

Gabi: [00:00:00] Hello, beautiful people. Welcome back to Pain to Passion Live. I am so, so thrilled about the amazing, beautiful guest that I have here today. I'm so honored to be able to speak with her. This is Marcie Alvis Walker. She is incredible. She's the creator of Black Coffee with White Friends on Instagram. Go check her out.

Um, If you don't follow her yet, you need to. I think I started following Marcie probably, I don't know, three or four years ago, and your content has just been such a blessing. Like, I love your voice. I love your truth telling. You are such a gifted, gifted human being. And she has a book. If you're watching the video, it's right here.

It's called Everybody Come Alive, A Memoir in Essays, and y'all, this book [00:01:00] is so good. Every single one of you needs to go get a copy. I have not been this attached to a nonfiction book in a while because you know, I love my fiction and I read it at night, but this one I cannot put down. It is stunning. So without further ado, I would love for Marcie to introduce herself.

Please tell us who you are, what you do and what you're about.

Marcie: Hi, I'm Marcie Alvis Walker and your introduction was so just, it was really just heartwarming. So thank you for that. Um, I am a writer. That's just basically all that I am. I'm not an activist, not a D. I. teacher, none of that. I'm just a writer who is.

Is a black woman in this world. And, um, I write a lot about what that [00:02:00] has been like for me. Um, like you, I, I read a lot of fiction. So, um, I was inspired by a lot of fiction when I wrote my own book. Um, so I wonder if that might be why you're jiving with it. I, um, really took a lot of pointers from, um, Writers that I love in the door, so when I'm not writing, I'm somewhere engaged in story.

Somehow I'm reading usually a few books at 1 time. I'm reading articles. I'm watching documentaries, watching TV shows, watching movies. Often, I'm doing reels on what I'm watching if it's just unbelievable or silly or whatever. So I'm a story girl at heart. I love a good story. I was raised on them. I raised my kid on them.

And, um. It's been a complete joy to be able to put a story out into the [00:03:00] world.

Gabi: Well, you are a gifted storyteller and I'm right there with you. I think stories are some of the most powerful tools that we have. I think story changes the world. And when you engage in someone else's story, or we get to hear someone else's story.

Your view of the world can be transformed as well. So I love that you're a story girl because me too all the way and absolutely you're such a gifted storyteller. Um, okay, let's talk about this book and your amazing life. I love your mother. She is a fantastic. Human being and just all of the, what I love about how you described her was it's so complex and so nuanced.

You don't just focus on there's no black and white, like there's no good and evil. It's like, this is a complex human being, which [00:04:00] we all are, but her love and her passion and your love and passion for her. I just loved that. Can you tell us a little bit about your mother and even your grandmother and what that was like growing up between the two homes?

Marcie: Yeah, um, it's really funny. A long time ago, I was going to do a blog called, um, it was called Heidi Go Lightly, Foxy Brown, and Neda Go Walking, because that's what I, when I try to describe my mom, I'm like, well, if Foxy, if you mix a little Foxy Brown, Not the rapper, but the 70s icon character, and you mix that with Holly Golightly, that's my mom.

Um, she's... She was, um, she was raised in the South, raised in West Virginia during Jim Crow, um, didn't want any part of it, so got [00:05:00] pregnant as soon as she could, so that, and she made sure to get pregnant with a boy who lived up north. Um, a lot of African American families used to send and probably still do send their kids down south for the summer because the parents would be working during the summer.

And this way you would go stay on that sharecropping farm or, you know, that farm town that your family grew up in and, um. That's what my, um, not my biological dad, but the dad whose name I carry, the Alvis, um, part of my name, that's what he would do every summer. And he actually had a whole different girlfriend and my mom's told her friend, you know, Hey, I need to get out of here.

I'm going to take your boyfriend. Oh my goodness. She's really a lovely, she was a lovely person, but she, she just was one of these women that just really knew what she was about, knew what she wanted. And set out to have that life. I don't think she [00:06:00] ever truly achieved it. She also had a mental illness.

She was diagnosed with, um, schizoaffective disorder, but treated throughout her life for different, um, disorders from schizophrenia to bipolar to, um, I think even at one point people were thinking she was multiple personality, but, um, late in life, finally got a correct diagnosis that she was grateful to get that she was schizoaffective.

Um, so that was my mom and She moved to Cleveland, Ohio and married the boy moved to Cleveland, Ohio. She's 16 years old and she had 4 more children and I am the youngest. Um, but the little, the little difference is that my. The Alva's dad, the name that I carry, he was a very fair skinned. Um, black man. [00:07:00] Um, many people on that side of my family passed.

Basically, they got jobs claiming that they were white when they were actually black. That's how fair skinned my, my, for my dad, because it's the only dad I knew. Um, my mom wanted a biological child who looked more like her and who was darker skin. So she had an affair. Um, and that man is my father. I never met him.

Um, and just, you know, she just was a person who made these kind of rash decisions that I think would have happened regardless of any mental disorder. It was really, truly just the person that she was. Um, yes, she was mentally, she had a mental illness. Outside of that, even when she was well, she was quite the character.

And so, um, [00:08:00] as she, when they divorced, she didn't know what to do with five kids. So one by one, she, um, took us to our paternal grandparents home. Um, the in laws that didn't even like her very much. They actually really didn't like her. My, my grandmother really didn't like her, but Um, my mother knew that they would take good care of us and we would go to good schools.

We would go to these white schools and we would be the first one of the first families to integrate those schools. So my mom sent us there. And, you know. Never really considered any other option. It was that she didn't want to send us back to West Virginia and I thank her for that. Nothing wrong with West Virginia, but my mom grew up in a small.

Hill [00:09:00] town called Boomer, West Virginia. So I'm very grateful that I didn't have to grow up in Boomer, West Virginia, . But, um, she thought my grandparents, who didn't have, um, my grandmother, who had never had children, she was my dad's stepmother, um, that she would take good care of 'em, and so my and my grandparents did.

So that, those are the two worlds I come from and what the book is about, me straddling this. Two different worlds where a world where my grandparents, um, one who passed to work at the post office and who passed to work at AAA, um, were very light skinned black people who We're very much into assimilating into white culture, white normative culture, not making any waves.

They were, they were proud of being black. It's not that they weren't. It's just that when we were out in public, they expected a different, um, [00:10:00] they expected us to not cause any waves to not wear our blackness, um, culturally. Right. And my mother was the exact opposite. She was, we would spend summers with her and it was like, you know, uh, you will only see black people the entire summer.

Um, why are you talking like a little white girl? My mother would say that to me often, those sorts of things. So it was a totally different experience that I had one where blackness was, Very much loved and in a very prideful way. Like it was like we love being black. We are proud of our blackness and one where my grandparents love being black, but it was very hidden and there were secrets and there were there were protocols to how we should before behave in public.

Gabi: Yeah. And the story that you, you weave about straddling these two [00:11:00] worlds is just so moving, which I know I've said that already, but, um, like you tell this story, for example, you tell the story of you're this little girl. That's like super confident. Like you're into yourself. And I love it. I love it.

Because I have a daughter who's seven and she'll just stand in front of the mirror sometimes and be like, Do you see how cute I am?

Marcie: I hope that never goes away.

Gabi: I know it's amazing. So I'm like picturing this like miniature Marcy looking in the mirror just like, yes, I am all that. Like, I love it. As every child should feel and then you suddenly have your eyes open to this world of racism that you didn't understand before then when you and your family sit down to watch Roots.

Like roots comes on tv, like everybody in the country's watching it. Yeah. [00:12:00] You're, I think you said you were seven when you watched it.

Marcie: I think I was seven. Um, I, I just for, I'm an older girl, but, so let me just explain to the kitties out there, there was this time where, Things came on the TV, that was it.

Like, you had to watch it. Right. When it aired, there was, you know, not everything would go into syndication and reruns. Very few things did. Um, so, the whole entire world, If there was a blockbuster thing that was happening or some really big deal show, we were all watching it at the same time. So there were no spoiler alerts.

You didn't have to worry about talking about a show because if someone didn't see it, people would ask you, like, I didn't get to see it because they would never know when they would get to see it again. Videos that we could buy. It, it, it was, it was ancient times, . So, um, so, um, when Roots came [00:13:00] out, um, in 1978, I think it was, um, the world stopped.

Everyone was watching this mini series. It was on for seven consecutive nights or eight consecutive nights, something like that. But it was a very big deal. Everyone who was, anyone in Hollywood that was a TV star in Hollywood was part of that show. So you're seeing, like I had loved the Brady Bunch and always dreamed of having a dad like Mike Brady.

Mm-hmm. . And then I'm seeing the, the same Mike Brady, cuz I'm seven, so I'm thinking of him as Mike Brady and he's an enslave. Yeah. Um, and it's. And as a kid back then, um, I also tried to explain in the book, there was no language. There was no culture for how we talked about race. So there was no, like, oh, this is a microaggression.

Oh, [00:14:00] this is, we need more representation. Oh, this, there were no hashtags. There was no black lives matter. It was none of that black girl. None of that existed. There was, there was, I had never even heard the word intersectionality. Thank you. That was something I'd never heard of. Um, so there, there was this very loud narrative of race happening, but this quieter narrative.

That had no language. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Gabi: Which is so it's so telling and so fascinating to think about this was it really isn't that long ago, but the language has changed so much. And here you are this little person. Like, I could feel it in my body. You're telling this story. Yeah. I'm not black. I will never have an experience like this.

However, hearing about the [00:15:00] traumatic response that your body had to this. I was just so moved for that little girl and how like. You just went back upstairs and went to bed. There was no conversation about it. No one talked about it. No one asked you how you felt, but it was like your whole world was like, suddenly flipped upside down.

And not only that, but you went back into like a school setting and all the white friends all the white people had seen the show too. And weaponized against you in a way that you'd never experienced before. So it's like they had. Language to use to bully you, but you had like no language with which to identify yourself and kind of fight back, even linguistically, just, that was so complex and challenging for you.

Marcie: Yeah, and something I didn't make it into the [00:16:00] book was that I knew I was black before then, and I knew that that was a problem for some reason.

I didn't know what, what was the source of the problem, right? I just knew when I went to this, when I was taken out of the all black school and put into this all white school, it was explained to me that some kids might be mean because I was black. But that was it. That was the only reason because. You're black.

And so for me, I, I had this very layered, um, reasoning for that. It was, there was this colorism happening in my family where people who are lighter skinned were more privileged than the people who are darker skinned. And I was the darkest in my [00:17:00] family. So I thought it was, Oh, it's because I'm so black because I'm so dark skinned.

And I thought my sisters and my brothers were having this different experience, which Wasn't true at all that we were all having a racial experience, but it just never was discussed that or why that was or the history around that. It's just like. Um, people won't like you because you're, you're, you're dark and that that's how I interpreted it.

So, my very 1st day of school, I had a little boy say something to me. He said something, I don't even know what he said, but I ended up tying him to a chair when the teacher wasn't looking with a rope and not letting him go, like, holding on and. I got sent to the principal's office very first day at my new school and um.

And [00:18:00] the principal was this lovely man, um, and stayed connected to our family through the years, and he, his name was Principal Schultz, and he said, you cannot fight everyone, and you're going to have a lot of people say terrible things to you, but you don't pay them any mind. That's basically what he said.

Wow. So, we were in a world where the adults didn't have the language. Black people didn't have the language, white people didn't have the language, but we were all watching Roots. Right. And we were all witnessing things that were happening in society without any language or any way of talking about it.

And it was also during the time of everyone being colorblind, because that was the best that you could hope for is that someone would not acknowledge your color. In an effort not to discriminate against you, which is terrible that that [00:19:00] was the best that we can go for. Um, because it was thought that if I see your color, then I have to discriminate.

There was no nuance there. So, as a little kid. I think even though I even in the at the end of my book and the acknowledgements I acknowledge all those children I went to school with they I forgive them because they didn't have the language or the skills or the knowledge, and I didn't either, and so they couldn't get to know me because.

They were probably going home and being told either stay away from me because I was too dark, too black. I was a black girl or not to pay attention to my color, to be colorblind. So kids were being taught one or the other thing, probably, in white homes. And in my home, we just didn't talk about race, period.

[00:20:00] Like we talked about, we had to talk about. Us as Black people being safe in the world, like I, I received the talk of which neighborhoods pulled over more Black people, where to be more careful when you are out, how to act when you are out, how to, how to speak to a white person, how to walk in a store and not have your hands in your pocket, not be digging in your purse, not be carrying a lot of bags because they'll think that, you know, like, so I had all that kind of talk.

I never had any kind of education about what racism was, how it had endured in the country, and why we were carrying it around the way that we were.

Gabi: Yeah. Wow. That's a, it's just a lot. And. I think that's what we [00:21:00] all need to continue to recognize is like, it's still a lot. Yeah. And just even because you're, you're mentioning all of these other conversations like that.

You did have where. You can go more safely, keep your hands out of your pockets, like all of these things, like, even that coming from my perspective is just like, so horrible that you even have to have those conversations. But for you, even the way you just said, it's like, oh, that's just like the normal stuff.

And. That stems from the racism that you didn't understand. Nobody understood, especially as a kid, like, you didn't understand where it was stemming from and all of that. It's still a flower that bloomed from racism, you know, is that you have all of those conversations. I think, like, just what I want my audience to hear [00:22:00] is.

That normal also is traumatic and shouldn't exist, but it's become necessary. Right? Right. It's a necessity just to keep you alive, like keep you safe. And that's still the reality today. Yeah. All the black children still have those conversations today.

Marcie: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Gabi: So I really appreciate you sharing all of that because it's really helpful.

Um, and I opening and like, you don't owe us any of this, but I'm just so grateful for your willingness to share all of this narrative. Um, I wanted to read this quote because it was so. It just popped out to me, and you can give me your reflection on it. Um, how do you keep your head lifted when race is a tragically complicated [00:23:00] emotion more than a fact?

Marcie: Yeah, um, I've always felt that race is more about what people feel about a certain group of people than it is about the fact about a certain group of people. Um. And that's really what I mean by that. It's more that people feel a certain way about black people or white people or, um, um,

indigenous people or, you know, um, Asian people, like, they'll be, they'll, they'll have a feeling about an emotional feeling. Right. That's really not based on fact. It's usually based on a stereotype or, um, some rumor that got really just out of hand. And so it's really hard to deal with [00:24:00] race as a little kid when it's more about people's feelings.

Like I could not, I've had so many times when a kid said, My, I can't invite you to my party because you're black and my mom doesn't feel that it's right. Well, I can't, I can't change. I can tell her a million reasons why I'm certainly not going to harm a kid. Party by being there and no one's going to turn black because we all ate from the same cake plates.

That's just not going to happen. But what I can't do is I can't change that mother's feelings. Or when it comes to interracial dating, I cannot change the way that people feel about interracial couples. I cannot change the feeling about that. I can. [00:25:00] Certainly point out the fact that there's very little difference in us.

DNA DNA wise, like, it's so minuscule. The difference between the DNA between a white person and a black person is. It's not even worth mentioning, like, we are the same. We're just human, but I can't change your feeling. I can tell you all the facts. So, um, race is so much more about feelings than it is about any facts.

Because, um, just recently today, I heard a man talking about how the reason that he's in Florida is because he wanted to be in a place that didn't believe in systemic racism, that would not uphold the idea of systemic racism. And his whole thing was, um, There's racism, but it's not systemic and his whole reason for saying it wasn't systemic.

[00:26:00] He's like, well, show me an institution. That's racist. It's like, well, that's odd because that's new. That's just you playing semantics because you can also cannot show me an institution. That's not racist because institutions. Are things that people create and people make. And so he just couldn't see it.

But if I said, well, how do you feel about the fact that there are so few black doctors in the health care field and the mortality rate for black people so much higher. What do you don't think that has anything to do with any kind of systemic racism that comes from having separate hospitals in Jim Crow times, and also the stereotype of black people being more being stronger use for experiments, all that kind of thing.

And that, to me, is a deeper question for him, [00:27:00] because what it gets at is, then you, if you don't believe that there's systemic racism, then. You honestly have to believe that there's just something wrong with black people that that's the reason why black people have never been that. We've only had 1 black president.

That's the reason why they don't have the same jobs. That white people have, that's the reason why their communities don't look up for black community doesn't have the same advantages as a poor white community. Um, that's why there's schools that you would really have to come to the conclusion. That's the reason why The reason that there aren't that many classic books by black people is because black people just weren't great writers.

It just and that's about your feelings because. If you take systemic racism out of publishing, out of housing, out of education, then the [00:28:00] ownership has to be that black people just aren't capable. And that's a ludicrous idea that a whole group of people, just because their skin color is darker. That's the only DNA.

That they somehow are lacking in some way, and I'm sure this guy, I would hope, never sat and thought about it like that. I think, like, he was like, of course, Jim Crow was terrible, but that was long ago. The idea that somehow certain laws being passed. Changed everything. Well, it didn't change people's opinions or feelings.

It just changed what people were able to do and not to do. And we are now seeing what happens when the highest court in the land takes away that protection. Because [00:29:00] then people can just base things on their feelings. And because we live in a colorblind society, a lot of times we'll say that that will be, they'll be doing it out of some sort of colorblindness.

They don't see color, but yet time and time again, they're doing Preference is anyone who's not black. So, yeah, that's that feelings versus that thing.

Gabi: Yeah, that was so well put. And I've, I've never heard that explanation for systemic racism. Put like that, but it's so clear when you say it in the way that you did.

So I very much appreciate that. I mean, ultimately at the end of that whole, uh, conversation is like, okay, so systemic racism doesn't exist. Then you're probably like me, that guy, I'm probably racist because that it's the feeling that. [00:30:00] There's something inherently wrong with one type of person that's not wrong with you.

Marcie: Exactly, exactly. That's not wrong with people who are like you. And I think, um, we just see it a lot, but people would never dare to say it out loud. But I've been in those rooms with, um, where people forget that I'm black, like, that's happened so many times. I've been in a room with all all white moms. Who was who will suddenly say something about a particular.

All black community. That they're going to serve, particularly as Christians growing up in a Christian faith, and then they'll say something really derogatory. Um, that's not a slur, but, you know, something like, I just don't know how they live like that. And it's just kind of like. What do you mean by that?

Do you mean they, as in their social economic status, how they live like that in [00:31:00] that way? Or are, do you mean because they're all black that you believe that this is something that is more black people than it is with other people groups? So it's a very, it's one of the things I wish it? We've done better with, with, um, talking about races that we hadn't made it so intellectual because it's just really right.

It's just commonly right in front of our faces, just based on how we live and the services that we engage in and the communities that we live in and the books that we read and the books that are sold. And, um, the shows that we watch, it's so, it's so like in our everyday, it's the yeast in our bread. And yet we, we tend to like, make it this very like, well, you have to study, you don't really have to study the history.

All you got to do is just look around. It's, we are a very [00:32:00] segregated society and, um, and it was, it's very unequal. Um, and either the opportunities are equal and black people just are lazy. Can't can't do it. Incapable not not education, whatever those reasons are, or does. The there's not enough equality, there's not enough equity.

It's 1 or the other and common sense would say it must be equity. And we do it in other ways. We do it. We're able to do it with women. If you ask most people who have a problem with systemic racism, if they believe that. Um, women have less advantages than most men. They will agree with you. They'll say, well, yeah, but then they'll attach it to, but there's a reason for that.

And it'd be about their feelings about women. [00:33:00] So we really are more in our feelings about one another than we are dealing with any kind of facts.

Gabi: Yeah. Yeah, so true. And so good. And actually, it makes me think of another quote that I wrote down, um, because you, you said a lot of really, really powerful things about how this affects children, like how it affected you as a child, and even Max, your child, um, and how complex that is, because basically what, what racism does, Is it attaches shame to the victim and then the perpetrator can just like, walk away and not even think about it anymore.

So it tethers to that most vulnerable person. Um, and you said this. Here it is. Just because the church isn't discussing race doesn't mean that our kids aren't aware of the larger, larger public [00:34:00] conversation. I thought that was so profound and it's so important to say because I can't tell you how many people I have talked to, white people, who are like, Oh, it's not even a thing for my kids.

Like they don't even notice if their friends are black or white. And I'm like, Yeah, really? Do you see the time that we live in? Like, do they have eyes and they are out there in this world? That's talking about it constantly. And if we're not intentional about talking about it in our churches and our homes, then our children will continue to perpetuate behaviors.

That attach shame to victims.

Marcie: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Mm hmm. And I, I think for a lot of parents, I would say this, I had a lot of lovely kids that invited me to a lot of parties when I was a little kid and called me friend and on [00:35:00] the playground would use a racial slur in a, in a, in the heat of a moment, or say that I couldn't do something because I was black and they were white.

And so. You have to understand that your kids have an entirely different interior world that you are not part of and if you have not discussed it, if you have not been definitive and how you show up in this world for other people groups, your kids come to their own conclusions. It's kind of like your kids can say that may never tell you that they don't like green peas.

They just might leave them on the plate or make them last, or mix them in with the mashed potatoes and gobble them down. And I'm just saying kids. Are very aware of difference and we all know that because if you've ever been picked out, we had to pick teams have been in that lineup. That [00:36:00] horrible thing happens to all of us in childhood and, um, you're the last to be picked.

You pick kids, figure out reasons to disassociate with people. And how, and also to categorize people, and if you don't believe that race is part of that, then you're really not, you're not allowing your kid to be fully human and have a fully human experience in this country where race has been part of the, one of the most prevalent things about its history.

And so, but I think this is true of kids. Kids are so it's so easy to explain difference to them. They're so accepting of it. Once you tell them why a thing is a thing. Right. But also, I will say to parents that you also know what your kids are getting [00:37:00] from other children who may not have the same values that you do.

I'll tell a quick story. I have a friend who adopted this gorgeous baby girl from Africa and when we were on our school campus. Christian school campus back in the day. Um, lovely families. We all are supposed to be loving Jesus and loving neighbors and all that kind of thing. These little kids, pre K age, actually a little earlier than pre K, had already, the two little white boys of her friend had already decided that this little black adopted girl.

Um, was too different for them to play with. And in fact, not only was she too different, they decided to play this game where they were going to tie her up. They had her at a oak tree and they were pretending to tie her up. And when my friend came over because her daughter had this look on her face, like, Oh, [00:38:00] that's not good.

She does not look like she's having a good time. And the little boy just calmly explained, we're tying her up and we're going to burn her because she's so dark. Oh my gosh. Little babies. And then. When my friend said to her friend, you really need to address this with her kids. She's like, I have not. She was offended and frightened.

I don't know where my kids are getting it from. I don't know how they, why would they would think that, you know, that I'm not like that as a mom. She got on the defensive and they were carpooling because they had older kids. And then again, it happened where the little boy said that he didn't want to sit next to the little girl because her skin was too dark.

Oh my gosh. And so This mom, I had this, like, tea at my apartment in Austin where I asked these moms to come over to see if we could talk about race, like any mom that wanted [00:39:00] to. I was in a different space than y'all. I would never open my doors to such an event again, just because, um,

the problem with it was.

Your first time coming into my home should not be for me to have to educate you on how to be in my home. Yeah. Or how your children should be in my home and. That should not be our first encounter, but I was really trying to back then without no it's still not knowing a lot, trying to like rationalize like how could a kid come to that we need to talk about all of this.

Yeah. And it turned out that a lot of kids at that school including my own. We're having these different experiences with race that they weren't talking about at home, they weren't [00:40:00] telling their parents the things that that were going on at the lunch table or, you know, and in the courtyard when they're playing for recess.

They weren't telling all those things. They weren't talking about how This little boy said that his, this one little black boy said that this, all the white, his white friends could say the N word, but all these other people couldn't. And my kids sat there going, well, I don't want them saying the N word.

What about me? Do I get a vote? And, um, you know, and they're rating the beauty of the races, like, you know. At the lunch table and you know, they're tying up little girls on trees and saying they're going to burn them and they're having a whole different experience of racial experience and a lot of it is because it's just not talked about at home and it's not talked about in school and that colorblind mentality kids will fill in the blank.

They will fill in the blank. Believe me, they will fill [00:41:00] in the blank. Or like my husband's family, my husband's white and British, um, there won't be much conversation about race. But then when you bring your black girlfriend, suddenly, there's a conversation about race. So, um, believe me that it's, it's. It's not in my, my husband, honestly, didn't was shocked at how his parents have behaved racially towards me at times, um, because it's not like he, he honestly was like, um, my parents with anyone who comes to the door, they're going to help them.

They love everyone. And his parents, his mother in particular had some very dodgy questions about us. Getting into a relationship that shocked him and, and hurt [00:42:00] him. But honestly, I was like, well, had you guys ever talked about it growing up? Like if it's something that never came up when you were growing up, she, she never expected it, you know?

Um, and that was something that I had to tell my kid that a lot of times when, if you do get into dating interracially, you have to understand that a lot of times these, these kids. Their parents have an idea of who they're going to bring home. And a lot of times it's not you. So, um, you know, it's trust and believe that your kids are having conversations about race, particularly now with everything that's going on in school districts and black lives matter, they're having conversations.

And if you want to know what those conversations are, even at a little age. Um, with little kids, I would say, buy books that actually discuss race and see what they say. And when you read them, um, go to [00:43:00] places to shop where there are where the demographic is different to see what your children say when they're when they're not the, um, majority, um, dominant race there, like, if you go, if you're always going to the target where everyone looks just like you, and it's right there in your neighborhood, you know, Go to a target that serves a Black community, or an Asian community, or a Latinx community, and see how your children react.

And allow them to flub it up so that you can make corrections so that you can course correct so that you can have open dialogue. It will, it would have saved my life a lot. My, my little, my little heart as a little kid had parents been a little bit more transparent with their kids when I was a kid. Yeah.

Gabi: Thank you for sharing all of that. And I'll just add, see how you yourself react when you [00:44:00] go into those situations. Exactly. Exactly. As an adult. Okay. So, um, I have, I have a black son and a white daughter. Yeah. My son is from Ethiopia. I was admittedly very naive. 10 years ago when

Marcie: Oh, me too. I, I thought, um, I'll let you tell your story.

I thought when we were fostering kids, I thought we were the perfect family because we were a mixed race family. I did not know. You just, you just make a lot of assumptions. And I needed to do my own education. I really did.

Gabi: Yeah. And that, that's the thing right there that I wanted to point at. It was like, we as parents need to do our own work, our own education, but it's been such an interesting experience having one of each because.

It's a fact like my son started getting called names in kindergarten, you know, he, he was in fourth grade this past year, got called the N [00:45:00] word at school. It's a big deal. It's very different from when you were a kid and it was just ignored. Like now the school is required to take it seriously. But even at that, it took so much advocacy on my part to actually have the school do something that would matter and work.

But what I noticed most was. The offending child's parents lack of involvement in trying to correct him and the way that he was thinking just think, oh, it was an innocent mistake. He didn't know what he was saying. And I'm like, that's a problem. If that's true, like, even that is a problem, you know, so it's, it's

very true.

I think white parents, a lot of time, we just want to protect our kids from feeling shame. Right. And we'll go to such extraordinary lengths to keep our kid from feeling shame, but I'll tell you when my son was called a name in front of my daughter and [00:46:00] she didn't do anything about it. Yeah, we had a conversation about that.

Marcie: Yeah, it's really hard because it's and I and I and I, I will say with parents, I think the hardest thing is that you're right. We don't want our kids to feel sad or shame. We don't want them to feel guilt, but. What if we didn't look at it like that and we helped our kids to feel more human and what if we looked at it more like that?

Same thing. I saw other kids as a little black kid. If another black kid was getting it, I wasn't coming to that kid's rescue. I was glad to have the break myself and my friends who were white. Who I knew adored me like we played and we were, you know, if a popular boy said something really mean and nasty to me, they weren't coming to my rescue because [00:47:00] they didn't want to be targeted.

So everyone's, everyone's held hostage in that situation to that racial moment. And I think a lot of kids do that. So I honestly don't have the answer for how. We evolve from that. But one of the things is that if there's open dialogue happening in the schools, one of the reasons why it's so important that we don't have these book bands is that if teachers are actually able to read about, um, gender and race and, and sexuality and ways that are appropriate for children, um, appropriate for age.

What it does is it sets out, it gives kids actual words and actual support when they see their kid. If a, if a kid reads a book about a little kid who is going through racial [00:48:00] injustice. And then they go on the playground and someone commits that. It's like, oh, no, we don't do that. It's kind of like we all grew up on the Berenstain Bears and we were able to say, look, the Berenstain Bears said that was not fair.

Sharing is not, if you're not sharing, you're not caring. We are, you know what I mean? We know how we knew how to behave because the Berenstain Bears showed us how to behave because, um, we had these books that showed us. How how to treat someone if they were having a bad day, all these things. But if we take that away, and we say, no, no, no, our kids are never going to have problems with race or problems with someone who is.

Identifying differently in their gender. Or their parents are same sex couple. Our kids are never good because our kids aren't paying attention to it. I'm like, kids are wickedly mean. And I remember just think about if you [00:49:00] had siblings. I would go for, we would go for the thing that we knew, if my sisters made me mad, I went for the thing that I knew was, was gonna make them cry, like, you know, I would say that thing, like, well, that's why your head's so big or whatever it is that you're super sensitive about.

And that's what kids will do. And I don't think that a lot of kids have this full understanding of what the n word means or, or what race is. But what they do know is that it can be used to hurt others. And why would we not want to teach them not to use that to hurt other children? Like, why, why would we not want to do that?

So, and I think It's hard for the parent when your kids the instigator because you feel so much shame and I do feel bad for parents who feel that that shame, [00:50:00] but the only thing that can combat shame is to acknowledge. And to grow from and change from that. That's, that's the thing. That's the light that destroys the darkness that shame likes to put up the cloak that likes to put upon us is we have to throw the cloak off and say, Hey, I own up to it.

I need to do better with how my kids are learning. I need to do better with my own education. I don't know why my kids are behaving in this world, but I will say this to white parents and black parents, because I think a lot of black parents. expect their children to carry too much shame by forgiving the unforgivable.

Like, you know, I know that I grew up with that, that I wasn't supposed to strike back. And so I carried a lot of that weight that I was told to be strong. And so I think one of the things that I would just say to to parents is [00:51:00] Um,

understand that your kids are human and that humanity begins the very 1st moment that they take their 1st breath. It doesn't come later in life and. You don't need to feel shame for your kid being human and just like, they have to learn how to walk. They also have to learn how to be community, how to be neighborly, how to be compassionate and that isn't going to happen.

Just from you taking them on mission trips, just I thought I could just. Foster kids my way into a very compassionate child, but, um, cause we have an only child. So I thought I would bring in all these foster kids and they would be forced to be compassionate. That's not how that works. It takes a lot of time and grooming and also a lot of, you have to show them how you too.[00:52:00]

Fail in these ways you to have misunderstood. Yeah. And we have so much. Wonderful history. Nowadays, there's just so many resources. There's no reason for it. It's and your kids are incredibly resilient, um, with shame. I mean, a kid can feel shame 1 minute and be looking at ice cream come the next and be just fine.

So allow your kids to feel. Guilt to feel conviction to feel empathetic for the things that they've put into the world. Yeah. Um, and also pay attention to those little kids. My little kid was my little kid got sent to the, to the principal's office the first day of school. They're 20. One now, but when their first day of school, they got sent to the principal's office because two other kids were fighting and it upset them so much.

They cried so hard and they couldn't calm [00:53:00] down, that they too had to go to the principal's office cause they were so upset that two other kids got into a fight. So let's pay attention to our little empathetic ones too, because those kids have an incredible way of being

a little hope in rooms. You know, and I think a lot of times those kids get overshadowed because, you know, so your little kid may have just felt deeply in that moment and a lot of times when they feel deeply they see this thing happening to their sibling. It's not that they're condoning it, but they felt it so very deeply and maybe the question is.

What did you feel during that moment? What do you wish would have happened? Um, how, you know, and it could be something where they can learn to not necessarily have to speak out because [00:54:00] That's difficult for kids that feel deeply, but they can do something like hold their siblings hand or pat their sibling on the back or cry.

And they can see, they can show their emotion in a different way. And you know, that's, and the same with kids that want to side on the side of the bully who are just scared and just want to be protected. We really do have to just spend a kids.

Framing and reasoning, because they do have these little interior worlds going inside and most I believe everyone is born to be light in this world and not hate and darkness. But, um, a lot of times that light is. Never brought fully forward because they spent so much time not being vulnerable. So, but I really, my [00:55:00] heart goes out to you that that must have been such a hard moment for you as a mama.

Gabi: Mostly I just. Want to make sure that my kids are okay and they understand what's going on and, um, they're looking out for each other. But thank you. Like, thank you for your wisdom on all of that. I definitely take that to heart personally. And I know that there were so many incredible takeaways from what you just said.

And, um, I was looking at the clock and I was like, how, how is it? Because this conversation has been so rich and I value and honor your time. So I want to make sure to not keep you for forever, even though I totally could. Um, this conversation has really been wonderful. So thank you so much. Um, and I would love for you to let us know, like, what are the best ways for the listeners to connect with you?

Marcie: Well, I'm listening to lovely [00:56:00] conversations like this. This is my favorite way for people to get to know me. So thank you for for this. Um, if you just put me in my name and to, um, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcast and you can catch some of my interviews. That's great. So I appreciate this 1 as well.

Um, but. Mostly on Instagram. It's the only social media that I understand. I kind of know how to work it. So that's the Black Coffee with White Friends. I have a newsletter called, um, Black Eyed Stories. Um, so, uh, you can find me there right now. I'm doing this fun thing where I, I love children's books. I still buy them.

You know, my family still loves them, even though my kids 21 and, um, I've been reading bands, children's books. Um, so just so there's a whole, I think there's about 4 or 5 different books that I've read. [00:57:00] That would just ban children's books and that's been fun because that that's a side gig that I did a long time ago and I miss being in the company of children and reading books.

So, um, there's that but there's also a whole bunch of stuff about, um, race intersectionality and faith. And so if you are part of a faith community, particularly if you are were raised Christian and you're trying to figure out how. Race has affected, um, how you view God, that's, I write a lot of stuff about that.

There, there's so much on that. There's spiritual practices. There's book list of books that I bought and that I recommend. It's just. It's endless. So that's really one good way of connecting and you can do that for free. There's also paid subscriptions, but there's a lot on there just for free. So you can sign up for that.

And of course, um, by the [00:58:00] book, everybody come alive and then Warren essays. And if you buy it and a group of you want to. Zoom and talk about the book, just, um, DM me on my Instagram or go to my website. I forgot. I do have a website. It's marciaviswalker. com. I forgot about that.

Gabi: Perfect. Amazing. And I will be sure to include all that info in the show notes too.

So if you're listening and you just want to go click on the link. Go check out the show notes and connect with Marcy. Um, thank you again so much for your time. Thank you for this beautiful book. Like I said, I'm going to be telling everyone about, I'm going to be posting on Instagram about it today. So I'm very grateful for you, for your voice and for this time.

I appreciate you.

Marcie: Oh, I'm grateful for this time too. And what a lovely mother you are. That's just beautiful. I just love. I just love talking to moms. Ditto.

Gabi: Well, thank you [00:59:00] friend. I'll connect with you again soon.

Marcie: Okay. Bye. Bye.