We're diving deep in today's podcast episode with guest Pricelis Dominguez!

I am so grateful to Pricelis for sharing her personal story of encountering injustice from a very young age and what that has been like for her and for so many people of color, immigrants, and others who have been marginalized in our society. It was beautiful to talk with her and hear how her experiences as a Dominican American in New York City eventually led her to be heavily engaged in multiple areas of justice work - with teens, human trafficking survivors, refugees, and those who have been wounded by the church.

Our conversation got real real, and honestly it was very meaningful that she was willing to have this conversation with me. We didn't pull any punches and wrestled through some difficult topics such as performative justice in the church, the necessary internal work of anti-racism white believers should engage in, wounding in the church and among believers, and how seeing each other as being created in God's image should be transformative to how we think and live.

One line that I'll always remember from this interview was when we were talking about the discomfort some white people experience when confronted with needing to recalibrate their thoughts around the importance of racial justice in their own lives. She said (regarding the truths of how racial injustice shows up every day): "It's uncomfortable for you, but it's traumatizing for us." That was powerful, as is this entire conversation. Please lean in with an open heart, and as always, thank you so so much for listening.

Please take a moment to rate and review! It helps a ton! Thank you!

More about Pricelis:

Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez is the founder/ceo of Full Collective and Host of the Yas and Amen Podcast. She is a coach, advocate, creator, writer, Bible teacher, entrepreneur, and social worker. Pricelis is a Black Latina living in NYC with her husband and son.

Connect with Pricelis:

Instagram - @pricelispd

Website - pricelispd.com

July NYC event (Sower's Summit) website - sowerssummit.com

Full Collective website - wearefullcollective.com

Facebook - facebook.com/pricelispd

Connect with Gabi:

Instagram - @gabiruth

TikTok - @gabiruth84

Facebook - facebook.com/gabiruth84

Website (coaching services, speaking invite, blog): gabiruth.com

(TRANSCRIPT) Ep. 22: Injustice, Church Trauma, and Seeing People as Image Bearers - Pricelis Dominguez

Please note - transcript was created by AI. Please excuse errors.

Gabi: Hello my friends. Welcome back to Pain to Passion Live. I'm really excited today because I get to chat with a new friend. Her name is Pricelis, and I found her on Instagram. Honestly, I don't even remember why or who you were connected to that I ended up finding you. But I'm so glad that I did because she has such an amazing and powerful voice in so many arenas and a beautiful heart, and I'm just thrilled to introduce all of you guys to her as well and to get to know her better.

So thank you so much for being here, Pricelis.

Pricelis: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here and get to chat with you.

Gabi: I am very appreciative of anyone who would take their time to come on the podcast, so thank you very, very much. And honestly, I think it's way more fun for people to introduce themselves than for me to just read a bio because interesting things tend to come up when people talk about themselves.

So I would love for you to take a minute and just tell us who you are, where you are, and what you do.

Pricelis: I love that. Well, I'm in New York City. If you don't already hear the horns, um, the honking of the horns. Love it. Uh, I live in New York City. Um, I, yeah, I'm Pricelis, Dominican American, uh, daughter of immigrants.

Uh, married to, uh, my best friend for seven, about 17, 18 years now. We've been married for almost a nine years. We have a little baby that is just too cute. His name is Moses. And he's one and a half. He's soon not gonna be a baby. He's just gonna be a boy. He is gonna be a child. Um, and that's crazy to me.

But yeah, I am many, many things that the Lord has called me to, uh, traditionally through education. I am a teacher and a social worker. Uh, and so I have, I traditionally worked in those fields for a few years. And now I do more so teaching, um, in the sense of Bible teacher. Uh, and do I do that through my ministry, Full collective. So we have like courses and teachings and I do speak engagements. And then through social work is, uh, really social work is the work of ministry. I would say it's the work of helping those who have been marginalized or who have been, um, wounded or put in the outskirts to be seen and healed.

And so I desire to do that and feel that I'm called to do that in the area of justice work in general, and educating the church on how to live our biblical justice, but also for those who've been wounded by the church serving, um, those people. Um, and then I also coach women who want to build up ministries and grow their ministries, uh, and I also have a podcast. I have a podcast called Yas and Amen Podcast. Not Yes, but yas, yas and Amen podcast. Um, we'll have conversations and meditations. Um, and I think I'm not missing anything. I am writing a book. That's it, I think.

Gabi: Yeah. So you have a lot on your plate. Yes. I love it. I just love it. I'm very much a multi-passionate person as well.

And I resonate so much with a lot of what you said. Um, I love how you relate social work as being like the ministry to the marginalized. I absolutely love that. Like, That's where Jesus lives. I'm sure you've experienced that in so many ways, and we could dive deep into that, but, um, yeah, I just, I love your heart and, um, your podcast is great.

I definitely recommend it. I'll put a link to the show in the show notes. Um, I like your meditations. Those are really, really cool. And I recommend those for anyone who just needs a little like, Peace and encouragement at the beginning of the day. That's usually when I listen to those kinds of things.

But it's wonderful. Thank you for telling us about you. Um, obviously these are some pretty specific fields that you're in, although you do so many things, but your heart for justice just shines really brightly and I would love to hear whatever you would like to share about, like, how did you end up in this space?

What's your story? Anything that you would like to share, just go for it. 

Pricelis: Oh, what's my story? Um, well, uh, I, I grew up in New York City, so I was born and raised here, and, Um, when, so I think I've always been, I've always witnessed and experienced injustice because of being a person of color, being a woman, being a daughter of immigrants, um, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh, and then growing up around, um, marginalized communities and impoverished communities, I witnessed it, uh, not just. Uh, in the every day of life, but also in the systems and housing and school and, um, I mean, everything injustice is, is crept into everything we think about, even New York City, uh, public transportation, how it, it doesn't run in certain impoverished areas in the weekend, but then it would never stop running, you know, in the, in the downtown or upper west side area.

And so it just, injustice is a very, it's a very blatant thing that exists out there, but can be seen, you know, just be overlooked by people maybe that don't experience it, um, or don't see the, the effects of it. And so I, it's always been around me and I've always witnessed and experienced it. And, uh, when I went to high school, I went to high school in New Jersey.

Um, my mom did not want me to go to high school New York cuz she heard Bad stories for my brothers. My brothers did not, uh, you know, encourage her well, in helping me prepare to go to high school in New York. So she was just like, no, we're moving to New Jersey. You're gonna high school in New Jersey. And I was like, what in the world?

But okay, I'm 12, I can't make my own decisions, so I guess I'm going where you're going, mom. Um, so we went and it was pretty, it was a really hard experience. Um, we were there, went out from eighth to 12th grade. Um, I, I experienced injustice in a way that wasn't so obvious for many, um, because it was, it was very, um, just undertone a lot of like, uh, a lot of Kind of assumptions about me, um, because I came from New York, so in the very beginning I, I was there, you know, they were like, were you part of a gang? Um, and I was like, what ? And they were like, you wear Tim's, so you must have been part of like, Timberland's and you must have been part of a gang. Or like, you know, do you know what drug dealer?

And I was like, what are y'all talking about? And it's just so funny cuz I was just like, I'm 12. Like I did not have access to these certain things and I actually had never like, um, seen like even know, knew too much about drugs or anything like that until I actually got to the suburbs of New Jersey, which is interesting enough.

And so a lot of high school was me, um, being like experiencing dehumanizations in ways that I. I couldn't tell you that was then, then, but I see it now and like how, um, I was the only black girl for, for a while and how, you know, the young men would look at me and have like this like goal of like, I, well I wanna like make sure by the time I graduate I, I've like, you know, kissed her or like been with her because, um, I wanna experience that like lit, like literally that was their thinking.

Um, and you know, I have a French last name and I'm Dominican. And well colonization for you. Uh, so, um, and you know, a lot of people would be like, oh, like you're Haitian, and like, just as if like, it was a insult to be called Haitian. Um, but I received it as an insult because of even my understanding of my blackness and my background.

Um, and so there was a lot of, uh, Lack of dignity that it was communicated and projected onto me in those years. And, uh, it really messed with my identity and my understanding of who I am in Christ and who I am in the world. And, um, so in becoming an adult and seeing the freedom. Um, that is found in people not dictating who I am.

I wanted to be able to help, um, young people do that, particularly because I experienced that as a young person, as a teenager. So my, my beginning work and education and uh, goals were centered around serving youth. So I was a teacher, um, and I worked in non-profits and summer programs and all, all the things that had to do with youth.

I even wanted to get a Youth ministry degree. Like I was really just all about the youth for years in that. Um, and then I, the Lord moved me to, uh, work with human trafficking survivors. About eight years ago while I was getting my master's in social work, I was actually looking for internship with youth and there was no opportunity.

So I ended up at Restored My Sea, uh, which is, um, an organization that serves human trafficking survivors. And boy was that heavy . That was the hardest thing, um, I ever. Um, it was, it was very intense. It was very traumatizing. Um, it was a lot, uh, but it was also the best job I ever had. It was the most, um, cuz they were a Christian organization and they were just very, Uh, intentional about like, Hey, this is dark work and we're gonna make sure that we are, uh, taking care of each other and, uh, and of view our employees and that we're praying and that we're fixing our eyes on Jesus.

And so, you know, I really, I really don't know how organizations. Non-Christian organizations do that dark work without hope in Christ. Like honestly, kudos to them cuz I don't know where, what they're hoping in. Um, so because that's just really hard to, to think about, um, without Christ in it.

And so, So that was me for about, yeah, seven years. I actually just left that job about a year ago and moved to work with ref refugees for a few months and then decided I would, I would be home full-time. But, uh, it's always just been, um, a heart in witnessing that injustice is a very real thing in both a bigger.

Uh, a bigger idea like human trafficking, that's a big, you know, issue all across the world. And it's a big industry to even the smaller things of like the person experiencing homelessness on my block or, um, you know, someone being mistreated or miscommunicated to, um, in the street or someone in church, um, being abused or being, uh, treated, not like an image bearer, like it just goes across the board and, mm.

You know, I think we can't, we can't be all things for all people. So I also, uh, I am for justice, but I've also have narrowed down the areas specifically that I know God has called me to in this season, um, in order to serve those areas well, which is, uh, specifically those who have been wounded by the church.

And then the other area is more than anything to, uh, help the church not be. Um, what is the word? Why can't I remember right now? Oh, performative justice people because, oh, yeah. Uh, that's what really has happened in the past few years. I know. We got very excited that. , um, you know, churches we're talking about justice more and they were inviting, you know, black preachers mm-hmm.

for in interviews, but that's not justice work because first of all, injustice does not just happen to black people. So you inviting your black, uh, a black preacher to come and have an interview is not justice work. Mm-hmm. , um, and two. Actually, the Bible has been teaching us about justice all along. So the fact that we missed it for so long as Christians, um, is actually a bigger, deeper spiritual issue.

So we had to, I think churches had to do the work before they decided to try to do the outside work, um, which is why it became performative. So I'm very a, I'm very passionate about helping churches understand what biblical justice is and, um, ha actually like live that out in a way that is effective and not performative.

So, . That's kind of where I'm at. And I'm, you know, it, this, that work looks different, different seasons with, uh, the ones, the people who have been heard by the church. You know, I create resources. I'm hosting a retreat in a few months in Florida. Um, so that looks different in different resources. Um, and then with the church, I'm actually hoping this year to start coaching churches and church plants, um, in that area.

Wow.

Gabi: So, so amazing. Like thank you so much for sharing all of that. Um, Obviously an overview of your story, but it definitely gives us an insight into who you are, where you, where you've been, what your experiences are, and um, I think the biggest thing about injustice and justice is how deeply rooted it is in the heart of God, right?

Mm-hmm. , and you're talking about. The past couple of years, people got all excited, invited the black preachers, all these things, and, and it was like an external show of like, yeah, we're on your side. But without that internal work, there's really no real change and therefore no real justice. Right? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. , exactly. Yeah. And as far as internal work, that has to start on an individual basis. Mm-hmm. too. Each individual has to do their internal work, not just each organization does that. I'd love to hear like your thoughts on that. Your thoughts on how it is the heart of God mm-hmm. and why it's so important to, um, take that individual.

Look inside before you do anything else.

Pricelis: Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I know many of us, I think when this comes out would be the end of January, and some people might still, if they're doing a year in the Bible, they're still doing maybe Genesis, um, but maybe some people are moving into Exodus. And, um, what's really beautiful about Exodus is that it's, um, it's such a powerful example of the heart of God when it comes to justice.

Mm-hmm. , because what it's showing is that people, people are being. People were being, um, I mean really it was labor trafficking, right? Because they were not work, they were not being paid. Um, really some cases. In some cases they were. Um, and so in that situation, you know, um, . We, he, we see that God tells Moses that I have heard the cries of my people.

Mm-hmm. I've heard it. And that whenever I hear that, that what I see, what I envision is the heart of God. That he hears the cries of his people and, and him hearing it. He will do something about it. He does take action. Mm-hmm. . And that's the difference between. Having a heart for justice, um, like, like God and other people who are just like, well, you know, just injustice just like is so wrong and it breaks my heart.

But does it break your heart? Because right when, when, when it broke God's heart, he did something about it. Um, and I'm not saying that, whoa, none of us are saviors, praise God, we can't be right. Um, and we're not meant to save, um, anyone and we can't change everything, but to just say, oh, that breaks my heart and keep it going.

Is the thing that really needs to be examined and looked at, right? Because, uh, we are image bears and we're supposed to be, we're called to be like Christ. And so God hears the cries of a pe his people, and he sends someone to do something about it, right? And then he continues. That's the start of it. And he continues to do that.

Till he gets to Jesus, he continues to send people to do something about our pain, to do something about what we're going through, to do something about, uh, the healing that we need. And so God is a God of action. He hears and then he does something. Honestly, in Genesis is the same. It's the same case.

There's def um, several different examples where we see. God sees something happen and he chooses to do something about it. He chooses grace even in the garden. He, they, they did what they weren't supposed to do and he chose grace and he chose to do something about the way that he loved them. God is a God of action and so, Um, that's really, I think the heart of God when it comes to justice, is that his justice is, is, uh, action oriented.

Yeah. So when you think about our own individual reflection, it should be, include that, right? So we should, we should consider, okay, why, where am I at with this issue? Wh why does it hurt me? Why does it hurt God? If it doesn't hurt me that much, why, why not? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, What can I do about it? What can I not do about it?

What is already being done about it? Because the thing is, so many people are doing so many things, which is great. Praise God that there are activists out there, these organizations, and then that's, that's what's great about us not having to feel like we have to do all the things like. There's people doing stuff like, thank you.

We don't need to really like get up and get ready to go protest. Um, but there's something that we can do in our home, in our block, on our street, right, in our neighborhood. Like there are things that we can do practically. I think we could look, we look at justice and we consider, well, I have to go to the next protest, or I have to go do this.

But you can do things in your everyday life. Injustice is happening every single day, everywhere. Mm-hmm. , right? And. It's really considering what can I do where I am. And um, and one of the things that I think about too, and I think when I encourage people to reflect on injustice and their thoughts about it, is that if, um, if it has nothing to do to do with you or if you think it has nothing to do with you, Would you still care?

Because one of my things that I actually, I would say kind of like it's a pet peeve, is to say, well, like I haven't experienced it, or I don't know anyone that has experienced it, so I can't. Mm-hmm. relate And injustice doesn't need you to relate , right? Yeah. Like to do justice work. It's a matter of knowing that on earth.

You are called to help people, serve people, help people be seen, help them marginalize, um, be heard, all that stuff, right? Like it's not, you don't need to have had a cousin, like, I don't need to have had someone, um, a, a, a family member have gotten shot in a, in a police, in a shooting, in a school. In order for that to matter to me.

I don't even, when Uvalde happened, people were like, oh, I'm a parent. It breaks my. What if you weren't a parent, though? Shouldn't it break your heart anyway? Like, right. The thing is, we, we relate it because, because of its relation to us, but it should break our heart whether we're a parent or not. Whether, you know, oh, when, when a woman, this happens, oh, she could be my sister.

It doesn't matter. What if you had no sister? It's a matter of like, That is another image bearer. You are an image bearer that is enough to care. That's it, . So that's really things to consider and reflect on when we're con, when we're thinking about injustice and justice work on how can we do it in our own homes, in our own neighborhoods, and where we are, where God has us, and what do we actually think about the things in the world?

Like, um, how do. See ourselves connected to it because I think the disconnect is what makes us, uh, inactive in our, in our advocacy and our activation.

Gabi: Yes. So, so good. That's super powerful. I absolutely agree. And, uh, like as you're talking, I'm thinking this song lyric, which is like totally from an old worship song, um, from a long time ago.

It keeps popping up in my head, like, break my heart for what breaks yours. Mm-hmm. . And the reason why that keeps popping up in my head is because so many people will sing that and think that they mean it. Hmm. Right. But when it comes down to it, If God actually did that for you, like broke your heart for what?

Breaks his, how different, what do your life look? Mm-hmm. . .

Pricelis: Right. That's uncomfortable. .

Gabi: Right. So uncomfortable. And it's just like you're saying, it doesn't matter if you can relate to it or if you've experienced it second or hand even. Mm-hmm. What matters is it's happening. to other human beings who are just like you.

And I'm like the biggest fan of Galatians ever. . . The book of Galatians is my favorites, literally falling out of my Bible cuz I've used it so much. But there's so much of that theme in Galatians. Mm-hmm. as well if we're tying the old and New Testaments together. But just first of all, how he's talking about like there, there is no distinction between like a Jewish Christian and a Gentile c.

Like you guys are supposed to be together and we're speaking together. You're all on the same level. And then he goes even further. He says, there's no Jew or Greek. There's no male or female. There's no slave or free, like you're all children of God. Yeah. and when we can actually take that discomfort of like, okay, if you're saying, God, break my heart for what breaks yours.

Mm-hmm. , which a lot of believers say, but let's see, do we actually mean it? If we take that discomfort, allow that discomfort, like it can absolutely. Embolden action that we never would've expected from ourselves, I think. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , um, to, and just to see people through different eyes, like all people. Um, so yeah, I just completely, I'm agreeing with everything that you said.

I'm like all about this topic and this conversation. It's so very, very important. Um, . And I think one of the things that I hear, you can tell me if you've heard this too, but whenever I've been talking with specifically, you know, white believers, about mm-hmm. Racial Justice, for example. Mm-hmm. , um, a lot of them will say something along the lines of, yeah, it's important, but there's lots of important things out there, and that's just not, you know, where I'm focus.

And to me I'm kind of like, well this is like baseline basic Christianity 1 0 1 . Yeah. In my opinion. Um, which, you know, it can be a dicey conversation, but I really feel so strongly, um, just in general about justice across the board. Mm-hmm. that, that. The epitome of the character of Christ. Yes. It's like one person cannot be abusing another person, or one culture cannot be abusing another culture, or one Christian cannot be abusing another Christian.

And if we tolerate that in our minds, in our hearts, or just simply by our. Willing ignorance, , um, then we're doing something that is an, the antithesis of the heart of God. That's kind of my thought on that.

Pricelis: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, uh, I, you know, racism is uncomfortable. Yeah, it is. It's, it's uncomfortable. And so I think people are, are thinking or are saying like, well, you're, you're, you're trying, like I already have things.

My baby is not sleeping at night. Like, you know. Mm-hmm. , I got rented, paid, like I have work and Bills. Like people are saying like, you wanna add something? Another heavy thing on my list of things. Right. And I think it's because. People think the thi look at it that way. They look at it, it's like you're, it's adding something else to my list of things to do and it's not a doing.

Mm. It's a being. Mm-hmm. . So when we look at it, it's not a doing. It's a being, then we don't, we don't need to feel stressed about it and then we, it becomes a part of our everyday life. Mm-hmm. , like the responsibility of dignifying people and paying our rent and mortgage are not the same thing. , you know?

Totally. One is a doing and one is a being, and one is a state of being and how we are choosing to be. With other people through dignity, um, should not be heavy, should not be weighing. There are some beings that are, are hearted heavy, like Forge for example, forgiveness. You know, for some of us it really is hard to forgive and to have be in that state of being a forgiving people every day and being a forgiving person is super, can be super hard for some people.

Right? But to dignify other. and to not be racist or to stand up for people when there other people are experiencing racism. Um, if we find difficulty in that is because we're not seeing actually what it is. We're not seeing that it's a state of being. We're seeing it as a state of doing and we're seeing it.

Uh, and we're not connecting it to, to how Jesus lived. He didn't do justice. He was and is justice. Mm-hmm. And because of that we get. If we choose to follow him, then it's something that automatically we would include in our everyday lives. Um, but like I said, it is an uncomf, it's an uncomfortable thing because sometimes you're faced with realities of like, oh wow, maybe I'm a little racist.

Right? Or like, wow, my mom's racist and I never even realized, you know? Mm-hmm. or like, or different things like that. And, Uh, racial justice is something to work towards. It's something that we just have to consider in putting, uh, placing in our everyday lives and cons, because the thing is, people who are experiencing racial injustice are experiencing every day mm-hmm.

So for, for people to be like, oh, well, like, it's, you know, it's something I'll like, do, I'll like donate to this organization, or I'll like, go to, you know, this event one time, or I'll take this course like, . It's not, it really isn't that, like we're experiencing this every day. Mm-hmm. . So you get to see us in it every day even.

Yeah. It's uncomfortable for you, but it's traumatizing for us. Exactly. So which, which do you prefer? You know, kind of thing. Um, and so I think it really is a reprogramming and a re mm-hmm. reevaluation of what we are doing in our everyday life. Mm-hmm. that are just responsibilities. And then what is God calling us to be in our everyday?

Gabi: Yeah. Thank you for that. That's a beautiful distinction. I think it's a liberating distinction, honestly. Yeah. , because we don't need something else added to our to-do lists. Mm-hmm. . But we, like we were talking about in the beginning, it's that individual. change. It's that individual. Um, like how do I actually operate in my thinking in the way that I show up in the world, in the way that I see people?

Like how am I as a human? Mm-hmm. that being. So, yeah. Thank you so much for that. I really appreciate that distinction. I don't think I've heard anyone put it quite like that before. . Um, and I very much appreciate that. And you're right, like you said, it can be uncomfortable for Yeah. Someone like me, but it's traumatizing for someone like you every single day.

Mm-hmm. and we're sisters like, yeah, that's not okay with me. Yeah. And I just think that that's, , you know, pretty basic as far

Pricelis: as that's it. when we, when we remember, it's part of the basics. Then hopefully that will change our approach to it. It's basic. Yes,

Gabi: exactly. And I would love to segue a little bit, because I think you're also one of the first people that I've heard talk about being wounded by the church as.

A justice issue. Mm-hmm. , obviously it is. Mm-hmm. , but it's not one of those big justice issues that you would think of usually. Um, but I like took, uh, you did a class maybe a month ago or so. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. about this topic. And I know it's a big thing on your heart. You're doing that retreat in Florida coming up, which is super cool.

Ellis does really cool events one of these days. , you're going to Kenya. I mean that is awesome. , so like goals for sure, , but I'd love to hear a little bit about how you've gotten involved in that realm of. , like being wounded by the church and that as a justice issue as well. Cause I think a lot of people are talking about that right

Pricelis: now.

Yeah. So, um, this came, so I've been wounded, wounded by the church. Um, two now I've been part of three churches, um, as an adult. And two, uh, were wounding, actually the first one was Hillsong. I didn't get wounded there, but I know, uh, many people who have. Yeah. Um, and you know, I didn't, I didn't stay. , I didn't stay there long enough or get close enough to, to, to experience that.

Cuz obviously of often wounds happen in intimacy and in proximity. Mm-hmm. , uh, which sucks. But, um, so yeah, I about two, wow. 2023, so about three years ago, 2020 . Um, in, in 2020, uh, you know, we, we left the church that, that we were last a part of. I just like I shared earlier, I've always had the heart for justice and always tried to look at justice from a biblical lens.

And the church that we were last a part of was what you would, they would say are very justice centered. Um, and when we left, um, you know, there was actually quite a big exodus of people, uh, for different reasons that they experienced different, uh, things that led them to leave. When I was reflecting on that, and part of my healing journey has been to realize that, uh, uh, p people or just, or p a group of ch uh, church can say that therefore justice work, um, but still dehumanize people.

and so then they're actually not doing justice work. Uh, and then again, it goes to the thing I was saying of performative justice work and, and I wanna be very clear, black people and people of color in general that are Christians, can do performative justice work. And this is not a, a white people thing like.

anyone can be, perform, do performative justice. Yeah. Uh, cuz it's easy, right? And so this was a church that did performative justice. Um, and we'll literally say like, it justice, the word justice is in their mission. Everything. But you dehumanized people, you undignified people, uh, and so, you know, you're not, you're not for justice.

And when I came to that realization, um, it really helped me see God's heart for. Those who would have, would be wounded by the church that, because if we look at it as a justice issue, it's even more healing for those who've been wounded because when we look at it that way, we say, well, God is just, and God is the God of justice, and he does just justice work.

And so this means that he will heal us. This means that justice will be ours and this means that he will correct what has. Broken. Um, and so that's when I ca yeah, kind of came to that realization and wanted to help people understand that because we, especially in America, look at justice work way too race oriented and absolutely so much injustice happens because of your someone's race.

But it also happens because of someone's gender. It also happens because of someone's even age . It happens because of where someone lives. It happens because of someone's income. Mm-hmm. , it happens for so many different reasons. Um, and in the case of the church, it happens simply because people are part of the church.

And so when we look at it as an injustice, then there's like a deeper responsibility that I feel that the church will have when that. Because what people say too much is, oh, they were offended. Or, um, you know, they just felt bad or someone said something not nice to them. No offense is different. And I've talked about this in other podcasts, um, shows that offense and abuse are very different things.

Mm-hmm. , um, offense is not traumatizing. Abuse is right. Mm-hmm. . And so a offense is not usually, for the most part, dehumanizing. Um, but. Abuse and those different kinds of wounds can be. And so, um, I feel that if the church looked at people being wounded as a justice issue, it would be addressed much more differently.

Mm-hmm. , um, and all these churches that are saying they are doing justice work would actually look internally and be like, well, how are we doing justice work in our church by dignifying every image bearer in this building? Um, so. . Yeah. My prayer and, and, and my encouragement and how, you know, I share, I share very, I share very bluntly about these things.

on social media, especially in like my podcast on my, um, some stack and all that stuff because this isn't, I don't think this is a kind of topic to be, um, so nice about. Because, um, people are not being treated nicely, so, so , I'm not going to necessarily be nice, but I'm gracious. Um, but I am very honest, um, around this because actually I'm coming outta a CK tomorrow about how some people.

Are acting like act like Christopher Columbus , you know? Oh yeah. When it comes to church plants and churches and how that, um, is a foundation set up to create a space that will have spiritual abuse and church heard, and racial trauma and religious trauma and all that stuff. So, That's what, that's what it is.

I think if a church says it's for justice, it's for dignity, um, then it would look internally before it tr tries to look outwardly on what is happening, um, in the world. And, and again, it's so funny cuz our last church, literally the words dignity and justice are in the mission. Oh man. In the mission. Yeah,

And, you know, um, and it just, it did, it was not lived out because it was not examined internally. It was just trying to do it outwardly. Um, and I'm not saying that that, um, That that doesn't, the outwardly doesn't count the work that was doing outwardly doesn't count. But in many ways, uh, the work that would've been done inwardly is, is weighed down more.

I think that God sees that more. It's just kind of like, if we're super Christian to everyone and at home, I'm cursing, I'm a husband and I'm beating my son, you know, like. . I could be doing nice stuff outside, but what am I, like, what's, what's happening inside? Yeah. Like that matters to God, I think actually probably more.

Um, and so I think that's a th that's a challenge that the, the American church gets to enter. It's like, what are we, what are we, how are we dignifying every image, image bear in this building and in this community first? Yeah,

Gabi: absolutely. Absolutely. As you're talking, I'm thinking about like all of these areas, including in the church, that injustice generally is about a gross misappropriation of power.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , and just a power differentiation that shouldn't even exist. Mm-hmm. , but that's what. is happening in these churches. I, I've had similar experience. It was a parachurch organization. Mm-hmm. But it was so very much about, um, justice. There was a huge anti-human trafficking part of the organization.

And internally, like you're saying, there was such a dehumanization. of the staff, and it was all, excuse me, it was all so that the leadership personalities would be the center of attention. Mm-hmm. . But what comes to my mind is like, I can't, I don't know exactly which verse it is, maybe you do, but the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.

Mm-hmm. like that should be more of what. , our works in Christ look like. Yep. In my opinion. Mm-hmm. and so, Oh, we had this huge bust. All of these trafficking victims have been rescued and isn't that wonderful? Because so-and-so did this, the names of the people in charge of the organization instead, what would it look like to actually be.

Ministering to the people who are working tirelessly to make these things happen in the background or the people who are faithfully attending your church. Yep. Like all of these people are, like you said, they're image bearers. Um, but yeah, that imbalance of power. I'm excited to read your . That will be very interesting for sure.

Because, um, yeah, I mean there's a colonization of people's personal. Mm. Like happening all over the place and it's terrifying. Absolutely. Um, when the personality, the person of Christ is really who we're supposed to be glorifying, and that's not happening at all. Yeah. So, um, I appreciate the work that you're doing.

I appreciate your straightforwardness. Um, I think it's needed , and I hope that. More people will be influenced by what you have to say because I think it is really important and just bringing awareness to churches and leaders in general, um, that this could happen and nipping it in the bud before it does.

Yeah. I think is going to be very, very powerful and can definitely, um, prevent. Abuses in the future, so. Mm-hmm. , thank you for that work that you are doing. Thank you. I know we're running out of time. I could talk to you all day cuz this stuff is like, so, I'm so passionate about everything that you're speaking about and I'm very grateful for your voice and all of these arenas.

But I'd love for you to just share anything else. That might be on your heart to share and anything upcoming or ways that we can connect with you. And I'll be sure to add everything to the show notes as well. But just let us know all that in closing.

Pricelis: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. Um, yeah, I think especially just in thinking.

about this topic. It's very, it can feel very big and I think, um, my encouragement is to think about it small. Mm-hmm , think about how you can do justice work in your everyday life. There's some resources on my website if you want to check those out. There's a podcast episode on h how to do justice work in your everyday life.

Um, and I'm actually coming out with a Bible study on doing justice in your everyday life in a few months. Um, because I think people don't do it cuz they, um, think. , like we said, a doing, and it's a bigger thing than it is. So, yeah, that, and then I have, yeah, a conference coming up here in New York City in the summer.

Would love to have y'all, uh, June 29th to July 1st. That, um, is the website and everything. All the information's gonna go live January, uh, 23rd. And then, um, Yeah, you can just get on me, uh, connect with me on Instagram at Ellis pd. Um, and then also at We Are Full and just check out all the different things that I'm got going on.

I send out a newsletter every week where I share some encouragement and truths and then upcoming things I share a little bit of encouragement around justice and what Justice Justice can look like for you this upcoming week. Um, so yeah, those are different things that I've got going on and that we can connect.

Gabi: Awesome. Sounds amazing. Um, yeah, conference in New York City. Let's go. . Sounds amazing. . But thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. And thank you for your heart. Um, I'm really glad that we're connected and I, I can't wait for everyone to hear this episode. So thank you once again, Ellis. Thank you.

Talk to you soon.